January 13, 2004
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Dating vs. Courtship
LONG POST ALERT!!!
It seems like a lot of people lately have been posting about marriage, love or the desire for love. A dating vs. courtship debate actually began to break out on one Xanga chatbox…
And of course, being the philisophical introverted English major that I am, I cannot just sit here and read/listen to such things without posting my own, personal views on such things. Typical, right? *chuckle*
(Ironic, that I’m writing about such things at a time when I’m not in a romantic relationship and do not forsee a romantic relationship in the near future!)
Please note: in no way is the author trying to press, push or even suggest his own personal model to you, the reader. This is merely an expression of his personal views. No offense is meant, nor personal attack: you are merely privvy to the innermost musings of ChrisRusso.
***
Let’s start by laying a couple of ground rules.
#1: I am a Christian.
#2: As a Christian I believe in total sexual abstinence. I am currently a virgin and will remain so until after the wedding ceremony, thank you.
#3: As a believer in total abstinence, I also feel that there is a limit of physical intimacy to which you should reach within a pre-marriage romantic relationship. If you’re not going to cross the road there’s no point in standing right on the curb.
#4: Also that this pre-marriage intimacy limit may vary slightly from person to person, based on his/her individual strengths and what God has requested of them. Kissing, for example, may be within the allowable scope of one Christian romantic relationship. Another (Joshua Harris’ for example) may not allow kissing of any sort until the wedding altar. [This difference in personal limit is scriptural: see Paul's discourse on partaking of meat sacrificed to idols. 1 Corinthians 8:4-11]
#5: There are times when I feel a divorce is right, but those are the extreme cases–adultury, abuse, ect. God said that “the two shall become one flesh.” He did not limit it to only the happy marriages, nor the marriages where the husband and wife are “in love.” He said ALL marriage.
#6: As Christians, anything and everything we do within a romantic relationship must be glorifying to God. (Don’t forget that in everything that we do we should be doing it as unto the Lord.)
***
Perhaps the second thing we should do is to define our terms. Nowadays people mean many different things when they use certain words. I was once talking with a Christian girl about dating, and she said, “Oh, I would never get into a dating relationship with anyone.” This confused me because I knew she had a boyfriend, so I pointed this out. She replied, “No, no, that’s different. If you’re dating someone that means that you’re having sex.”
See the problem? We were using different definitions of the term “dating.” Let’s use something rather universal then.
www.dictionary.com defines a “date” as the following:
- An engagement to go out socially with another person, often out of romantic interest.
- One’s companion on such an outing.
It defines “courtship” as:
The act of wooing in love; solicitation of woman to marriage.
Are all of our terms defined?
***
Romantic Relationship Model 1: the current world’s system of dating:
Today’s world seems to be rife with one-night-stands, cheating boyfriends and/or girlfriends, and an utter lack of real commitment of any sort. Many Christians that I know look on this model with equal disdain. Therefore I’m not going to bother addressing this issue–it’s a seperate problem.
Romantic Relationship Model 2: “Let’s be friends.”
This is a growing trend among Christians nowadays. You have young men and women who are obviously attracted to each other, go together alone on ‘social events,’ spend time together…but refuse to call it ‘dating’ or a ‘courtship’ or even any sort of romantic relationship. If asked to define their relationship, often they will say, “We’re close friends But just close friends.”
There are several problems with this system. First of all, it’s not honest. by definition, a ‘date’ is an exclusive social event involving a member of the opposite sex…what you’re doing is, well, dating.
“But I never said we were dating!”
“But weren’t you?”
“Don’t I have to think it’s a date for it to be a date?”
“Do you have to think a car is a car for it to be a car?”
“This isn’t like that.”
“Mark, when two people of opposite sex enjoy a social activity, it’s called a date.”
“But it wasn’t romantic.”
“Not all dates are romantic, but any date is potentially romantic. That’s why steady dating produces expectations, especially among girls. Life is short. Why should they waste their time dating guys who aren’t serious?”
“We were never romantic.”
“She thought you were.”
“Yeah, well, I guess that’s true.”
–excerpt from “Who’s On First” by J. Budziszewski
If you look at the quote above, you see the second problem spelled right out. Expectation and perception. It becomes so easy for one person to think that this friendship is a romantic thing, while the other sees it as only platonic. And so one person will have greater expectations from the relationship than the other.
I was in a relationship like this for a year. I took a really pretty girl to both my junior and my senior proms in high school. During that year between we gave each other Valentine’s Day gifts, went on “exclusive social activities,” went over to each other’s houses, spent time together… I saw it as a romantic relationship from the get-go, though I referred to it as “a close friendship.” She, however, saw it as a platonic thing, even though she did have romantic affection for me. Because we had different view and expectations from the relationship, it led to problems later on.
Is it really so hard to be up-front with each other?
Romantic Relationship Model 3: Courtship
Recently the concept of courtship has become rather popular in Christian circles, spearheaded by the book I Kissed Dating Goodbye by Joshua Harris. Harris advocates a high-commitment sort of romantic relationship. There are several guidelines to a courtship relationship. For example, one should not court until one is ready for marriage. Also, the guy should be willing to go to the girl’s father to “ask his permission to court his daughter.” There is less emphasis on the “social outing” (i.e. dates), and more emphasis on spending time at home with each other’s parents, siblings, or with other friends.
Also, there is no such thing as casual courtship. Almost by definition, every courtship relationship should be slowly progressing toward an engagement, and eventually marriage. (Barring personal incompatibility and/or relationship problems, of course)
I only have one problem with courtship. I agree with many of its main tenents (commitment, familial inclusion), but I think it seems lopsided. How does one get into a courting relationship? It’s a huge commitment, after all–you’re saying that, barring problems, you’re going to someday marry this person! Not something to take lightly!
To make such a large commitment, you have to know the person at least marginally well already. That is, you have to already be friends with them.
This is how it works for many people–they begin to court a friend, the courtship goes to engagement and finally to marriage. But what if a pre-romance friendship isn’t possible? Or what if you only know the person marginally? How do you decide whether they’re worth such a commitment?
Of all (five) of the girls that I’ve ever requested a romantic relationship with, only two were already friends of mine. Two were only aquaintances–I knew them but not well. And one was a total stranger that I met at a Christian retreat.
This is the flaw I find with the courtship system. And I’ll admit, it’s not a huge flaw. There is much about courtship that is very right. But it seems to me that it is only the second half of the equation.
Romantic Relationship Model 4: the Reformed Dating System
There has to be a way to get to know someone sufficiently well so that one can make a court/do not court decision. If you do not know the person all that well, then what you first need is time spent with that person to discover what sort of guy/girl they are. In short, you need to spend time with that person in ‘social activities.’ You need to take them out on some sort of date.
Call it ‘Reformed Dating’ if you will. (R.D.)
The objective in Reformed Dating is to get to know as much about the other person as is possible in a short amount of time. Go to dinner together, meet each other’s parents, go to the zoo, go to museums, ect.
What I like about R.D. is that there is less commitment than courtship…at first. In fact, a first date should be a totally no-pressure thing. If you both have a horrid time, then there is no reason to subject yourselves to a second date. In fact, at any time during R.D.ing that you want out of the relationship, inform the other person and…just get out. Easy as that.
More casual? Yes. But it shouldn’t stay that way. The object of R.D.ing (as I see it) is to get to a higher level of commited relationship (like courtship) or to self-terminate within a month or two maximum. If it’s a year later and you’re still just doing the non-commitment thing, then there’s a problem.
Think of R.D.ing as a screening process for courtship.
And from thence one can proceed to courtship, and possibly to engagement, and finally to marriage…
Objections to Reformed Dating:
A friend of mine once said, “Why give yourself to 100 men/women when God has one special one for you? why not wait?”
(I’m assuming she meant ‘give’ in the emotional sense, not the physical. See Abstinence plug above.)
This of course may lead into the entire “soulmate” debate–a subject for another post. But let us assume, for the sake of arguement, that there is one special person that God has hand-picked just for you. And suppose that special person is out there somewhere. How are you going to find him/her?
One might argue that God will lead your ‘special one’ right to you. And I’ll admit that this is within the scope of God’s ability. But it seems rather inconsistent with the way He works the rest of the time. Take evangelism, for instance. Did Jesus say, “You stay right here and I’ll bring you the nations so that you may make them disciples?” Nope. He said “Go into all the world and make disciples.” Or did He say, “Don’t bother praying–God knows what you’re going to pray anyway, and will work it into His will?” Nope. He said, “Pray without ceasing.”
Do you see? God always seems to require action on our part, and then He will work. The priests carrying the ark had to wade chest-deep into the Jordan River before God parted the waters. King Theoden had to ride out on a death-charge from Helm’s Deep before Gandalf arrived with reenforcements.
Romantic Relationship Model 5: None
I feel no guilt about my desire for eventual marriage. God Himself once said, “It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him.” (Genesis 2:18) But I know several people that just don’t have any such desire.
I have a close friend who, in high school, was head of a group called “the B.T.R.s”. That stood for Bachelors ‘Till Rapture. He would always talk about how he wasn’t ever going to get married, so that he could serve God better.
(I have my own sneaking suspicions about God’s plans for this friend of mine. Knowing Jesus’ sense of humor, I wouldn’t be surprised if marriage snuck up on him one day. But I digress.)
“His disciples said to Him, “If such is the case of the man with his wife, it is better not to marry.”
But He said to them, “All cannot accept this saying, but only those to whom it has been given: For there are eunuchs who were born thus from their mother’s womb, and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven’s sake. He who is able to accept it, let him accept it.” (Matthew 19:10-12)
But I want you to be without care. He who is unmarried cares for the things of the Lord–how he may please the Lord. But he who is married cares about the things of the world–how he may please his wife. (1 Corinthians 7:32-33)
As you can see, there is nothing wrong in Jesus’ eyes with never becoming married. It’s just not for everyone. And yet the unmarried man/woman has a slight advantage over the spouse. They do not have a family to worry about and provide for.
My BTR friend once tried to tell me (in jest) that this meant he was more spiritual than I. “You just want to get married so you don’t ‘burn with passion!’” he taunted me. I retorted that, in that case, all of the married servants of God were less spiritual than he: such as Hudson Taylor, C.S. Lewis, Peter Marshall, Billy Graham, and even Peter the Apostle.
If you feel called to a permanantly celibate life, well, more power to you. In terms of romantic relationships, though…well, you shouldn’t have one. The defined purpose of courting or reformed dating is eventual marriage–if you have no desire to ever marry, what business do you have in raising your partner’s expectations?
Romantic Relationship Model 6: ????
What about you? Do you adhere to one of the systems I discussed? Or do you have a system all to your own? Do you disagree with anything I said? Have a quote you wish to share? Let’s discuss!
Feel free to fill my comment box with any and all of the above. I’m curious–and I love debate.
Singing off…after a too-long post…
[EDIT:] Word. Why did I write all this, anyway? Just goes to show you what happens when your brain and fingers run away with your blog… Oh well.
Comments (39)
we could all go about it like a lot of the first year missionaries [FYMs] my sister works with in philly: one day, you’re good friends and ministry collegues; the next day, you’re engaged.
or NOT.
see, the FYMs are not allowed to date each other during their FYM year. but after that, whether they’re on staff with AIM or whatever, they can date. but all the AIM couples [i think it's up to 6 now] who have gotten engaged in the past year skipped the dating step entirely and went straight to engagement. yeah, i don’t really understand it either. but that is how “FYM” went from “First Year Missionary” to “Find Your Mate.” lol
i like your idea of reformed dating. it’s similar to my philosophy of “dating with a purpose.” but i’m still more of the mindset of getting to know each other as “good friends” before jumping into the whole “dating” thing. but that’s just me…i also have only been on 2 “dates” [as defined by http://www.dictionary.com, they weren't neccessarily leading towards romance] in my whole life, and i’ve never had a boyfriend, so that could be a sign that i need to rethink my “friends before romance” philosophy…or else it means that boys are afraid of me.
ack, straight from friends to engagement…don’t think I could handle! hehe
I’m glad you’re an English major
DAAAAAAANGGGGGG! That was fantastic. Coherent, well written, well thought out and practical. I’m so glad you used Prof. B’s quote – he is like Solomon to me. Right now I’m feeling the bittersweet nostalgia that comes with being reminded of past friendships and the good ol’ days. I had this amazing group of friends, we were all homeschooled and we discussed stuff like this till the wee hours of the morning. Your post is a lot like how our discussions went.
Thanks so much for your comments on my blog! I felt so alone in my thoughts on the matter till you posted. I love your site – so would my sis (http://www.xanga.com/eowin).
There are only 2 things (I think, but I won’t promise)I slightly disagree with you on. And since you love debate and I love debate, then this is going to be a blast! Ready?
In regards to courtship, I do understand what you mean about jumping into that type of serious commitment so soon. I mean, gosh, a guy has to go from friendship to practically engagement with a girl- thats a LOT of pressure! But I think that type of courtship model puts too much emphasis on the courtship portion and less on the friendship. Ideally speaking – guy notices girl (or vise verse), they become aquaintances and would like to go to a deeper level friendship-wise, their intention is finding out whether the other is a suitable marriage partner. How do you get to know each other without asking each other out? Here’s where you and I differ. Rather than head toward the dating thing (which inevitibly generates romantic expectations, despite all your good intentions), I prefer to find ways to hang out in non-dating social activities ( college activity, a group of friends hanging out, a group movie, a shin-dig with other people at your place). I would purposefully invite this person to non-threatening, group or volunteer activities and spend time getting to know them that way and building a friendship that way. And you can be real up front: Look, we like each other, but let’s keep things platonic so we can get to know each other better.” Emails are cool as well as phone convos, but those shouldn’t be the only thing you do to get to know each other. Courtship does not have to be this heavy thing, I think it’s simply designed to cut out the games, increase honesty and communication and head toward the altar or friendship, the way God made us. why this way? why not a casual date?
That leads me to my 2nd point in your RD section: casual dating. There are 3 main reasons why I just don’t think this works: Facades, romantic expectations and time invested. I’ll talk about each as breifly as possible.
1) Facades: no matter how REAL you think you are or how honest you attempt to be, dating has this weird effect on people. They just have to put their best foot forward, put on their best face and then attempt, maybe unknowingly, to do what they can to get the other person to like them. why? human nature. We all want to be liked so when we date a person, we always look our best, talk the best and relate the best that we can (not that we always succeed, but you get my point). That person never really sees the “real” us until we become much more comfortable and acquainted, and frankly, that takes time. Keeping the “getting to know you” stage in a group, friendship atmosphere, tends to keep things more real. The other person can see you interact with others, not just alone with them, they see you let your hair down, because you are not trying to impress them on a date. So the whole “casual” dating thing that either continues into courtship or ends in a month, really doesn’t really work because of human nature.
2. Romantic expectations: cash-based courting or the dating model, puts the guy as the initiator. Good news: it forces him to be a leader, responsible and mature. Bad news: girl feels obligated to guy because of money spent on her. Therefore, romantic expectations. The emotional intimacy and physical intimacy kicks up a notch when you go from friends to a dating couple. Guys kick into “wooing” mode, girls kick into “alluring” mode- and that’s normal, that is exactly the way God made us. And that doesn’t mean you are going to make out or have sex, it just means that the attraction and attachment only increases over time which leads me to my last point…
3. Time invested. We put time, effort, money and so forth into a relationship. Things are going good, you get along well, but there are a few things that have raised red flags. Yet, for some reason you aren’t willing to let go. Why? You’ve put a lot into this relationship (even though its only been a month. I can spend just one day with a person and be very close to them.) and you don’t want to hurt the other person. Maybe their feelings are much deeper than yours or vise versa. It’s only been 2 weeks! But that’s the way God made us and you can’t deny creational design. yes, it’s just casual dating, but people’s emotions and hearts are involved and you can’t ignore that just because you are just one step above friends.
So…my attempt at a debate has ended in a long ramble. I hope it made sense, but I seriously doubted it. I’ll check later and see if you have responded. “As iron sharpens iron…”
Thanks again! I’m enjoying this….
Blessings – B r o o k e
Woohoo! Debateableness! *grin*
I guess I should do this systematically.
1: As to your first point, Brooke, I don’t think we really do differ all that much. Indeed, I agree–friendship being the transition to courtship can be preverable to R.D.ing. But it’s not always possible or practical. For example: trying to form a relationship with someone that you only see once in a while… (Being that I’m a commuter in a school of mostly residents, this happens to me a lot.)
I’m all about the “non-threatening, group or volunteer activities.” I’ve been known to make dates out of them–they’re fun, they tell you a lot about the other person, and you get to introduce your romantic interest to your friends (assuming they don’t know him/her yet). (Or, you get to meet your romantic interest’s friends.)
Dating is a ‘social activity,’ which doesn’t neccessarily denote dinner and a movie. Or exclusivity. But there are times when it is exclusive: there are certain conversations that you should have with a potential mate that are awkward to have around other people. And group dates or group events, while fun, can be tiresome if your romantic interest is the quiet type; and/or if you have loud friends. (I went on a group date with a girl once and didn’t get more than three words out of her the entire day!)
Which is a nice segue into your second point(s):
Facades: absolutely. We all put up these masks, these mental personality shields, to try to make ourselves look good. And they only come down over time: as we become comfortable with each other we slowly lower our defenses. Now, if you’re friends with someone first, you have an advantage–you know them and are marginally comfortable with them already. If you’re going from aquaintance to dating, however, those defenses are raised high. This is precisely why I myself prefer R.D.ing in this situation–it gives you a buffer zone in which to build trust, get comfortable with each other, and hopefully catch a glimpse of the person hiding within. Otherwise you risk entering a courtship knowing only the mask.
But think about it. If you and your interest have…interest… in each other, but are choosing to ‘remain platonic to get to know one another,’ are you putting up any less of a facade? You may be ‘just close friends’ but the attraction is still there, and so up comes the fake self, the ‘look-good me.’
Romantic Expectations: well, yes, the expectations kick up. There’s nothing you can do to prevent that though–if it doesn’t happen at this stage, it’ll happen later when/if you start a courtship. And the girl feeling indebted…that’s a cultural thing, really. It’s because the 21st century ‘independent woman’ mindset is clashing with the 19th century ‘protected woman.’ There are ways around this–my last girlfriend and I had a system where she paid for every third date. (But many of our dates were just videos and popcorn at her parents’ house, or board games at my house)
Time invested: er…yes and no. I have been a victim of invested-time-syndrome, but it most certainly did not happen after only two weeks. We were eight months into the relationship. However, I fail to see where this problem is unique to dating. It has nothing to do with the classifaction of the relationship–but it has everything to do with the relationship itself. You can become too attatched due to invested time when you’re still in a platonic phileo friendship, but when your heart is crying “Eros!” Or, it can likewise happen in a courtship when red flags come up and you decide this is not a person you want to marry. (In fact it would be even harder in a courtship!)
The point I’m trying to make is that you cannot protect yourself from broken hearts through using friendship as a shield. The very same problems that often occur within a dating relationship can also develop in a friendship-where-you-have-feelings-for-one-another-but-are-keeping-it-platonic, or in a courtship. That’s the problem with emotions: they refuse to be governed.
Really the best way to avoid problems is 100% honesty about your feelings at all times, whether in friendship or R.D. or courtship. Even then it will not hurt any less–the wound will just be cleaner and not go gangrene.
(Gah–this comment was longer than many of my posts!) *grin*
Hey Chris,
There are a couple ledges behind the falls, especially on the left side. // Hmm… dating/courtship. Well, I have made stupid mistakes in the past and I suck at relationships. I’m better now though. I made a committment to not kiss until engagement as a way to devote myself to exclusively one person and so far have kept it for over 2 years. I always find that observing someone for a while before asking them on a “mutually exclusive” outing is a great idea, and a good way to hopefully detach yourself emotionally from the situation, as it’s super-important to know how someone else relates and interacts with others before figuring out how they will with you. I think the hardest part is knowing who to pursue and when… timing is very difficult. I don’t know… I’m still working through this as well. I just know that the Spirit will let me know what to do when the time comes and He is preparing me until that time. Purity rules!!!
Nice, detailed post. First of all, the water in Cattaraugus Creek is green because… I don’t know! I think it has something to do with cow patties and stuff like that, which is disgusting if you jump into it. Never mind.
Wow, what a great debate you have going here…
If God wants you to date someone but you’re so hung up on not dating you’re gonna miss out.
Well first of all, putting dating styles into nice little catergories looks great on paper, but let’s be honest with ourselves here:
1. Every relationship is going to be different. Even if you’re set on let’s say courtship, what happens when the person you’re into doesn’t like that style of dating? You might have to make a few adjustments. And I agree with Chris on the fact that sometimes it’s hardly possible to really know the person enough to make that kind of commitment.
2. There is an emotional side to dating. [What!!!] First of all, I personally believe that going through that much trouble of defining a relationship (dating vs. courtship vs. friendship) takes all the fun out of it. It’s too systematic. Our relationship with God doesn’t work that way. “Okay God, we’re going to be this close for a while. Then when I feel like I know you better, we’ll take it to the next step. But we’re just friends for now.” That’s rediculous. Especially if you’re falling for the person right away. It does more damage trying to cover that up and keep telling yourself the relationship is platonic. If you’re both attracted to each other, then loosen up. Don’t force yourself to be friends because that’s how you decided to define your dating relationship before you got into it. Just because you may be able to fit the label in your little defined box of a relationship doesn’t mean your heart will fit, too.
So you’re probably wondering what I do approve of…
Well I do think you should form some sort of aquaintance at least with the person before you date. You should know them fairly well before you commit to a relationship. (At least know their last name, lol) I think going on a date is a fine way to accomplish this. But, at some point you have to make a decision; either stay friends and stop dating or start a relationship, because feelings of attachment can form over time when you’re dating, regardless of whether the person is right for you. Dating with groups is a good idea, but you should be able to have private conversations as well. And both people should be honest at all times. That way one person isn’t dreaming of marriage and the other is plotting the break up without either having a clue of the other’s intent.
But above all else… HAVE FUN! Don’t be so serious. I once dated a guy who was so systematic about the whole thing it was sickening. I just wanted to get to know him and have a good time… but he was constantly discussing his points of view on dating (which he didn’t even follow!!!) Don’t plan things too much. My parents met when my dad showed up at her front door to sell her cookware. They started dating and got married seven months later. You can’t plan that kinda thing.
Okay, so there’s my rant. Go ahead, argue with me… I love a good debate
*~Kim~*
It seems the general consensus is the group date/non-threatening activity deal. This is something I totally agree with, because not only does it let you see how they act around their friends and yours, but it also lets your friends see how he/she acts around you and others.
Like it or not, once you’re in a relationship you form certain biases based on the fact that you’re together, and your friends and family may see something that you’re missing simply because you are so invested in the situation. In which case, they can be extremely helpful in saving you from heartache, by telling you that person is just not right for you at the start.
I agree that you should be aware within a month or two of getting to know that person whether or not he/she is right for you. And yes, honesty is the best policy.
Also, physical purity is totally important and so is emotional purity. You should only give your heart to the one God has for you. We are called to protect our hearts, and there are some topics, thoughts and feelings that are best left for deep commitments, like engagement and marriage.
Double props on that discussion starter!
haha chris you are amusing”King Theoden had to ride out on a death-charge from Helm’s Deep before Gandalf arrived with reenforcements.” hehe BUT i agree with all you say here … i have some SLIGHT variations … but i agree … the one thing that i didn’t notice (and don’t get me wrong when i say you are a guy .. hehe) is that there isn’t a lot of emotion here, it’s got some, but more logical … and while this might work for some people are indeed different and so sometimes you need to make space for those who are going to be more emotional than others ..i’ll go into this more on MY blog hehe-shanella-
wow Chris – opening the can of worms worked well for you. This is RAD!
I can’t wait to reply, but alas, fair maid must work for her living. Off to the dungeon I go….
more debate stuff at lunch. *clasps hands in anticipation*
B r o o k e
ACK! Sorry I don’t have time to write a long post because I’m only online at school. I wish you could come to my school and kick some sense into a few people I know, though. People shouldn’t get into relationships when they aren’t ready, because, like “The & Habits of Highly Effective Teens” states, “these relationships are usually about as stable as a yo-yo.” I LOVE that analogy.
thanks for the info on my page! yours is really interesting, by the way.
I, too, am online while at school and only have a limited time to do this in. Fortunately I type fast…
so let’s skim out a few things that struck me:
intrepidhiker: oh, by all means, we should be observing our potential interests first if possible. To an extent. After all, getting a restraining order slapped on you for stalking is NOT a good way to start a relationship! lol
kim_is_laughing: very, VERY good point. Yeah, all this works nice in theory–practice is a different animal entirely. You really have to take it day-by-day when you’re actually IN the relationship. (Notice that I’ve only been able to even look at these theories now, when I’m in a non-relationship moment of my life.)
angelbelle: Oh, don’t worry, Shanella: I can get as emotional as the next gu–er…person. I’m looking at this passionlessly on purpose right now. I don’t understand what you mean by “making space for those who are going to be more emotional”…I’ll definitely have to check out your post.
jendee24: I agree with the point you’re making here. There are topics that should be reserved for certain levels of relationship. (I had a female friend once start talking to me about something, and I was like, “Whoa! I’m sorry, but I really don’t discuss such things with just ANYONE…”) And I agree with you about trusted others letting you know what they see. (The problem is sometimes you don’t want to hear it–eros is deaf as well as blind.)
What didn’t sit right with me, however, is your statement about “we are called to protect our hearts.” Frankly, I don’t see this in Scripture. I see that we are called to give our hearts entirely to God; and out of the overflow of that comes our love for everyone else (including our romantic interests). (As in, “You shall love the LORD your God with all your…) But to protect our hearts?
What seems dangerous is that it seems to be a desire to shield ourselves from emotional pain. From heartbreak. I just want to throw this out for consideration: yes, a broken heart is a painful thing. No, it’s not fun. But it can be neccessary. God has often used pain to mold and shape his children. I’ve had my heart broken twice (once by a girl, once by a best friend): each time God used that pain to make me more like him. (“The LORD is close to the brokenhearted and saves those who are crushed in spirit.” Psalm 34:18)
And remember that pain is the reverse side of pleasure. To truly protect your heart you must also shield it from all that gives it joy.
Chris- crud! You opened a whole other can of worms. you are truly a courageous soul, bro.
Guarding your heart I believe is what Jendee is refering too. A guard protects or keeps someone or something from getting in, correct? So it stands to reason that when the bible says “And above all else, guard your heart, for it is the wellspring of life (another translation: it affects EVERYTHING you do) Prov. 4:23″ that protecting it would be synonymous. But your point of suffering and pain bringing us closer and making us more like Him is correct as well. Who’s right? both. But I think there is a SEVERE lack of balance in the singles life. We just give our heart to everyone we date basically and get it torn up. Yes God mends, but our hearts were meant for Him alone to protect and hold. When we give them away, they get hurt, we get hurt, we get calloused, wounded and it affects EVERYTHING we do. God is close to the brokenhearted, because He is trying to win their heart back and mend their brokenness. Their heart would have never been broken had it not been taken out from under His care. Prov. 15:13 also states though “A glad heart makes a happy face; a broken heart CRUSHES the spirit.” A broken heart can tear you away from God too, because if your spirit is crushed, your communication with God is disabled. You last quote about pleasure and pain is mirrored by a lot of CS Lewis’ writings about Love and Joy. We must open ourselves up and be vulnerable to love and be loved, thus enabling someone to hurt us. But God doesn’t want us to live in a bubble and He desires us to live life fully, in all of its heartaches and turmoil. I just think there is so much that happens to us in life that we shouldn’t uneccesarily expose ourselves to heartbreak by jumping from one relationship to the next to try and find The One, when He already desperately wants our whole heart surrendered to Him.
Elisabeth Elliot talks a lot about guarding your heart and your emotions and she has lost more than any of us could ever imagine (2 husbands). She has been through pain and pleasure, but she warns young people to not grant their hearts to the one they are dating. That heart bond should be reserved for marriage. I believe we long so much for that intimacy, that soul-bond, that we jump into it when we are attracted and emotionally attached, and when it ends, we are ripped apart inside. Its only happened to me once. And it was painful. I wouldn’t ever want to go through it again, but I DID learn so much through it. I believe if I had stuck to my convictions though that I wouldn’t have to experience that heart break to know I should have done the right thing from the get-go.
And because you opened up this whole new discussion, I haven’t been able to post my rebuttal about courtship. dangit. Be back tonight. This is great, Chris! Thanks!!!
Oh okay I see. Semantics getting in the way again. *grin* My bad. Good call on Prov. 4:23…
I really really want to ask “do you really thing that a heart that does not leave God’s care will never get broken?” But I won’t ask that, for fear of getting us further off-topic than we already are.
Tell ya what. Whenever this debate eventually peters out I’ll start the broken-heart pain/pleasure thing in a brand new post. That way for now we can just focus on…er…what were we talking about again? *grin*
hey chris, you might be interested in a relationships rant i wrote almost a year ago. i think some of my views have changed a bit since then, but that’s cuz i’m in the process of figuring out all this relationship jazz. [i mean, who isn't?] http://www.xanga.com/item.aspx?user=skacoustic&tab=weblogs&uid=11283781
maybe the way we define “dating” in our culture just doesn’t work for some people, like me! or maybe i’m just biased cuz i never really tried that sort of dating. to be totally honest, i’m kinda repulsed by the idea. it seems like a game, a big, fake game. i hate playing games with people’s emotions. and i hate fakeness. i take my friendships seriously. why should romantic relationships be any different? i don’t get the whole “shopping” mentality: “oh, i’m just looking right now.” dude! as if i’m a freaking guitar amp or a pair of nikes! i have more self-respect than that. and i have more respect for others than that as well. now that i think about it, i think it takes more courage to get to know others seriously (whether its to consider romantic involvement or to just get to know them better in the context of friendship) than to just date around and browse the fish of the sea. friendship IS vulnerability. and vulnerability IS painful. but isn’t it worth it in the end? isn’t it better to be hurt many times but in the end know the few who you can trust with your life than know a lot of people in a flippant sort of manner but not really KNOW them enought to trust them?
Ooooh…I totally like that rant.
Maybe the reason that I’m not repulsed by dating is that I’ve never treated dating as a game… And that I personally don’t have the hugest expectations from relationships. (Perhaps that’s my I’ve-been-hurt-before cynicism, or maybe it’s my personality.)
All I want in a relationship right now is someone to sit near the fireplace and talk with. (That’s one reason I’m not in a relationship at the moment, too–my girlfriend would probably want more than just that, and it wouldn’t be fair to her.)
I totally agree with Kim (kim_is_laughing). But what’s up with this: “And remember that pain is the reverse side of pleasure. To truly protect your heart you must also shield it from all that gives it joy.” Yeah I do guard my heart so I don’t get hurt but if you don’t open up to people and have some fun, how are you going to enjoy yourself in life? I’ve opened up myself and gotten hurt but in those situations in which I was hurt, I learned something new.
Chris, I don’t know any chick that would NOT want to just sit in front of the fireplace and talk! God’s gonna hook you up, because she is out there man.
yeah, let’s do the whole guard your heart thing debate- the reason I had that ready answer is because I just preached at my youth group last Wed. on the specific subject, using Sheryl Crow’s song “The First Cut is the Deepest” to illustrate my point. it went really well. I think one of the main problems that we have in the 2 current “dateable” generations right now (Xers & Mosaics) is that they give their body away and their heart simply follows suit. I know teens who have sex just to do so, without any spiritual or emotional connection. They just hook up. That’s so messed up. They have no idea about soul ties and how God has created us to become one with a person we have sex with. And they wonder why they’re so ripped up inside?
*sigh* sometimes it can be a bummer ministering to teens. THAT breaks your heart.
ooooh, Chris I was thinking, once we get thru with this endless monster you created (PROPS!) let’s talk about Online “Christian” Dating Services.
unkown territory. mwuhaha
Oh I totally agree, heychung: that was my point exactly. That phrase I said about shielding from pain and all that gives your heart joy…well that’s the Stoic point of view. But they’re wrong: a good relationship (whether friendship or romantic) is worth risking the pain over!
I’ll give this ‘endless monster’ another day to work itself out before I post the next discussion topic. (Online Christian Dating Services?! Do you really want to talk about Online Christian Dating Services?!)
*First of all, talking in front of a fireplace would be awesome. All my ex wanted to do was make out and we never really got to know each other past the “my parents annoy me and i like chocolate chip cookies” point. lol
Anyway… Ever heard of speed dating? Now that’s crazy. A mix of guys and girls meet at an organized event. They all get a sheet to write comments on and they rotate every three minutes or so. They get to ask whatever questions or say whatever they want to. Afterward they can choose to contact any number of people they think may work.. matches hook up for a real date and the whole process begins from there. You can go to as many of these things as you want until you find someone. … weird.
haha…there was an episode of Monk where Adrian was trying to track down a suspect, and he followed her into a speed-dating place, and ended up accidentally going through the speed-dating system… He ended up telling each girl a whole string or his nerosises, or talking about his wife, and freaked them all out.
(I didn’t know my desire for fireplace-chats was such a good thing! *blush*)
how many guys like fireplace chats. cuz I have two at my house dangit. I never knew!
teeeheee. j/k
online “matching” or dating services – Bring it!
You would not believe how many people mess with that stuff and I would be very interested on thoughts on the matter (let’s think like the Bible and answer that way, you know?)
Quote: “The point I’m trying to make is that you cannot protect yourself from broken hearts through using friendship as a shield.”&”Really the best way to avoid problems is 100% honesty about your feelings at all times, whether in friendship or R.D. or courtship.”
OOOCH! When you said those things it brought back a coupla memories. And I’m going to try to give a brief synopsis of my past romantic history, so that my further comments will be understood, alright?
Ok, where do I begin. Basically this nice guy started coming to my church, I developed a crush on him due to some things about him that I was attracted to. What was baffling though was the negatives about him (character, cleanliness, maturity issues) way outweighed the positives. So I was completely confused by the attraction. since I have never dated or had a BF or any type of remotely romantic relationship with the opposite sex, I just did what I always do – I ignored the crush, remained detached in a nice little friendship and tried to leave it at that. The problem I encountered is that that crush never went away, after a year it only grew. Yikes. And his involvement in my church only increased=more time I spent with him. Another MAJOR problem that I encountered – reciprocation. I wasn’t expecting that and I’d never had a crush crush back. It really threw me for loop and messed up my little unrequited love syndrome.
So we played a lovely little flirtatious friendship dance for about six-months. Then people started calling us a “couple” (mind you no DATES of any kind happened, but our friendship was getting CLOSER), so for the sake of honesty and quell the rumors, we have the inevitable “Talk”. everyone’s had one, and I didn’t want to do it, becuase I knew once feelings were communicated, things would change. And they did – we had many “Talks” after that and we moved into that “psuedo-romantic relationship” no dates, were “just friends”, but maybe in the future?….ack! It was not good and even though we were honest with one another, our honesty never got us anywhere and only aided in making the relationship more emotional and intimate. Point being: there never should have BEEN a relationship and I knew it. Eventually things dissolved when I did the whole “I’ll change you” thing and he did the whole “Let me betray you and stab you in the back” thing . But I learned so much (it really backed up my convictions with actual experience -ouch) and I never got involved physically or otherwise. I did compromise my standards in regards to my beliefs about being involved romantically with a guy I knew I could never marry. We never should have “talked” in the first place. By the end i was emotionally attached and the breakup hurt me and messed up my self-confidence and self-esteem. But humility is never a bad thing and my pride about knowing EXACTLY what to do in a relationship was ripped away, and I’m thankful for that. I don’t know it all, obviously
All that to say this: honesty is great, but it is never a failsafe and can actually be dangerous if used wrongly (ie: I feel this for you, but I don’t think I’m at a point in my life to do anything about it (marriage)). 100% honesty does not avoid problems, it simply airs them so they can be dealt with – we determine how we respond.
Secondly, you are EXACTLY right: using friendship as a shield will not guarantee that you won’t experience heartbreak (I should know – I tried), neither will dating guarantee that you will. But you have to be aware that once romantic feelings or attraction is communicated, you’ve just changed everything.
Also Chris, I think your view of courtship is maybe a little skewed because the commitment end of it seems so scary and lopsided. And I agree that it may seem so. But my experience with it has been the opposite. If the guy I mentioned (who believed in courtship) had had enough respect for me and enough maturity, he would have done the truly honest thing and asked to court me. And that would have ended everything then and there. He knew it too. So it was easier to keep on like we were and get that “romantic high” rather than be adults about it (and I’m not saying I wasn’t equally responsible, but that’s the way it was). The major reason I like courtship is that the games are gone, facades are hopefully down, and the familial involvement that is so vital, is in place. We are not left to be the sole decision maker in the relationship. We would hope that if we were making a wrong decision, we would hear God on it, but sometimes we don’t and we need our families input. I also think that courtship is preferable to RDing, because it simply says “You are someone that I’m interested in, I believe that there is marriage potential here, so let’s continue forward and move from friendship to an investigative, closer relationship.” I think people see courtship as this pre-engagement phase, which it can be, but it was designed to be a getting to know you phase with the help of family and friends. I think it brings accountability to others into play a whole lot more than dating. It takes the whole couple thing out, and puts the whole family thing in. I also don’t agree with you on the “If we are friends but we know there is attraction present and we will have facades up.” I just have never seen it – if you are just friends I don’t see that pressure or expectation, because though the attraction is there, there is no worrying about impressions due to the fact that you are not solely focused on each other. Nor is there that romantic dating experience to feed the anxiety of the two people.
Really, we could debate about definitions and rules all day, but I really think that almost everyone who posted has the right idea. Just as our Christianity is not about rules, but about our relationship with Jesus, the same is ture about how we relate to the opposite sex. We all have different ways we practice our faith anf different beliefs, but the central focus’ of each of us is our loving our Savior. If we do that in a relationship with the opposite sex, love Jesus, follow our convictions, and treat people with respect, the “rules” that we have debated will hopefully take care of themselves. And we all pray that we will God will bring us to the One and that our hearts will be intact when we find them, amen?
I think I win the award for the longest comment in Xanga history. wahooo!!
Brooke
oh yeah, and Chris…..you’re right
hahahaha
dude we need to talk sometime. in the meantime, look at my blog ring, “relationship anarchists”, and my good buddy’s site: aristarchus, where he outlines our joint theory on relationships PERFECTLY several pages back.
i don’t have time to go into detail, but i like to say “sure there’s isaac andd rebekah stories, but there’s a heck of a lot more jacob and rachel stories…”
This is perhaps one of the single best conversations I’ve ever read. It’s taken me a while to get to it, but Brooke recommended it and then you linked it, so I knew I had to check it out.
I had something to add (just realising now that this discussion is less than three months’ shy of its first birthday), but you do realise what time it is, don’t you? When I start spelling words that normally end with the American “-ize” stem with the British “-ise” stem, it’s far too late for me to discuss all the oddiities of romantic relationships. Of which, there are many.
Please strike the “perhaps” from my first sentence. I just re-read the whole thing and am newly impressed.
yes, let’s revive this one! how have your views changed (if at all)? do you blame this discussion for your datelessness? Am I still the brat I used to be?
no, really, it’s funny, because upon re-reading it, I think my views have evolved somewhat, maybe due in part to this discussion.
I’d truly would love to see it revived, Chris.
[Dealyed Comment Alert]
Oooo, NICE topic. Lots of opinions.
Horatio, I agree with you on nearly everything you said. The only thing I’m skeptical about is the no close friendship thing. I believe that if the relationship between two people progress so that they participate in “exclusive activities” and they make it clear that neither of them feels romanticly about the other, they can safely remain “just friends.” There are some cases of this, though rare.
Also, I don’t believe in soul mates. I believe in soul matches. One shouldn’t waste his life waiting for someone “perfect” or “better” who will be a soul mate, when someone worthwhile and beyond is right in front of him.
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